Girls only: Sall Grover and the fight for women's rights
Claire Fox interviews Sall Grover, owner of Giggle for Girls, and Katherine Deves about their landmark legal fight for sex-based rights.
I know that many Academy of Ideas supporters and Substack readers will be in no doubt when asked ‘what is a woman?’. For most people, the answer is simple: an adult human female. Indeed, until recently, questioning this definition would have seemed as bonkers as asking whether two plus two really equals four. But when the law says otherwise, how should we respond?
This question was brought to life for me last week. One of the privileges of being in the House of Lords is the chance to participate in, and hear from, external speakers. Last week started with a special breakfast gathering, featuring Sall Grover – founder of the female-only app, Giggle for Girls – and one of her legal team, Katherine Deves. Both have been visiting the UK from Australia to get support for their appeal of an important test-case decision on the definition of ‘woman’, which Sall lost last year.
It all began when then 54-year-old biological male Roxanne Tickle from New South Wales, who identifies as a woman, complained to the Australian Human Rights Commission when moderators withdrew his access to Giggle for Girls, because - well, to state the obvious - the app is exclusively for women. However, when the subsequent case (known as Tickle v Giggle) was tried at the Federal Court, Justice Robert Bromwich concluded that, according to Australian law, sex is ‘changeable and not necessarily binary’. The ruling effectively eradicated the category of sex in law. The decision set a dangerous legal precedent with international implications, summed up by Jo Bartosch’s headline at the time: ‘Australia has abolished womanhood’. So, meeting these two fab, articulate and courageous warriors - who are now launching a legal fightback - was a great honour.
At the breakfast – hosted by Lord Strathcarron and organised with the help of the indefatigable Venice Allan and attended by other peers and a wide assortment of journalists – Sall and Kathryn spoke passionately about why they are challenging the outcome of the case – and why the issue is so important in the battle for biological reality and women’s hard-won rights. More egregious still, Tickle is even appealing the ruling for ‘indirect discrimination’ to direct discrimination, which threatens to lead to a massive hike in costs to millions of dollars. Sall and her team need our help.
The Tickle vs Giggle is a case study that we should all be familiar with, so I took the opportunity of Sall and Kathryn’s visit to Westminster to do a behind-the-scenes filmed interview for the Podcast of Ideas. We talked about the case, the pros and cons of facial recognition (which the app used to determine who was a woman and who wasn’t), lawfare, the #MeToo movement and how human rights NGOs have become enmeshed in trans ideology. We also discussed the real-world impact of this trend for the likes of Scottish nurse Sandie Peggie, who was suspended from Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy, Fife, in January 2024 after she objected to Dr ‘Beth’ Upton (Theodore Upton) - who identifies as a woman but is a biological male - using the female staff changing facilities. Please do watch and share our discussion on YouTube:
For an excellent companion piece, see this Suzanne Moore interview with Sall in the Telegraph. It’s also worth reading this article in UnHerd, in which Michael Foran, a lecturer in Public Law at the University of Glasgow, gives an interesting background take on the employment tribunal involving Sandie Peggie. Meanwhile, Jo Bartosch is on form in her summation of that case for spiked: Calling yourself a woman does not make you ‘biologically female’.
Sall and Kathryn are heading off to the USA mid-week, so for any American readers, let me know if you can offer them any practical help and solidarity. You can also help by heading to gigglecrowdfund.com to join this landmark fight to reclaim sex-based rights and protections for all women and girls.
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Debating Matters Transatlantic 2025 – Debating Matters
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ARE DATING APPS GOOD FOR OUR ROMANTIC LIVES?
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Thursday 6 March, 7pm
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Saturday 8 March, 11am-1pm
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ASSISTED DYING: WHAT’S HAPPENING IN PARLIAMENT?
Newcastle Politics in Pubs
Tuesday 11 March, 7pm
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GROWING UP IN THE CULTURE WARS
East Midlands Salon
Thursday 20 March, 7pm
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PHAEDO AND MENO
Classical Philosophy Reading Group
Sunday 23 March, 6pm via Zoom
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TECHNOLOGICAL FIXES – THE NEED TO LOOK EAST
Buxton Freedom Hub
Tuesday 25 March, 7pm
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DOES BRITAIN INSPIRE ASPIRATION?
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Saturday 5 April, 1pm-3pm
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I would respectfully suggest that the Australian Law is an ass.
Sal is a very brave and determined woman. I've contributed to her crowdfunder in the past and will do so again now.